Marketing may have been pusing to get the gun out in time for SHOT2014, but that is probably not the source of the problems, just a contributing factor.

The preproduction guns seen at Gunsite were, (at least I have been told) made in Remigton shops. But actual production was done by Para-USA and Para has not had a good rep for QC and reliability. That leade me to believe that the design is probably solid, but what came out of Para was something like sending your car to be waxed and finding out they polished it with an 80grit belt sander.

JRH6856 wrote:Marketing may have been pusing to get the gun out in time for SHOT2014, but that is probably not the source of the problems, just a contributing factor.

The preproduction guns seen at Gunsite were, (at least I have been told) made in Remigton shops. But actual production was done by Para-USA and Para has not had a good rep for QC and reliability. That leade me to believe that the design is probably solid, but what came out of Para was something like sending your car to be waxed and finding out they polished it with an 80grit belt sander.

If they had all the machines and tooling to make the R51 in the Remington shop I wonder why they just didn't set up shop there and build em instead of having them made from a second hand company (Para). If that story is true that is......its anyones guess. And really all this hype this year with the R51 with its intro and many fails really has led to interesting discussions has it not? Sadly the R51 is heading down the same path the 887 took a few years back.......an epic fail...not completely, but overall.

Rick 51/ R51 wrote:

maccountrypilot wrote:

lklawson wrote:Don't get too worked up. Growing pains, sometimes even severe growing pains, are common in brand new, innovative, designs.

If you have an alternative carry piece then just let Rem do their thing as long as it takes. Better for them to fix it right.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? SEVERE GROWING PAINS??? BRAND NEW INNOVATIVE DESIGN??

First of all ... the R51 and the pedersen block can hardly be called new and innovative. This is an older technology design (as I understand it) which has been updated.

Personally, I am shocked that the gun tested so well (in pre-release) ... as seen in several youtube videos. Now the weapon is released and there seems to be issues with the weapon. In my mind, I can't help but feel that something changed between the pre-release version and the ones that were offered to the public. If that wasn't the case, why are there so many problems being seen now?

That is fact that Pedersen design is old design, about a 97 year old design, but an incredibly fine, reliable, and comfortable 'action'. I can attest to that from shooting my 95 year old Model 51 in .380 that grandpa bought new in 1919 for $15.50. I've been shooting that piece for over 50 years now. Old design, lighter weight, newer technology in materials (?), and a "Super Rush" by the marketing department to get this R-51 out to the public resulted in short-changing the owners of these 1st Generation R51s. One thing that kills me is the aluminum frame and its involvement in so much of the Pederson design's contact areas. Makes me wonder if the frames will outlast the barrel or firing pin.
I'm more than willing to wait it out while Remington makes good on these R51s. I'd just like to hear from owners who haven't had bad luck with their's.

Don't get worked up? I'm not! I am simply pointing out certain events that cannot be refuted. Perhaps you missed what I was saying .. so let me try to make it more clear.

First of all .. this gun was touted as being the best thing since canned beer at the Shots show.

Secondly ... after the Shots show several of the R51's were out into the hands of people to test and review. If you look at the Videos, nearly all were extremely complimentary towards the R-51. You can watch almost all of them firing the gun without a single issue.

Third .. At some point after the Shots show and all the youtube videos, the actual weapons were released for purchase, Since the actual release, we have seen and read multiple stories (not only on this site but many others) of weapons going back to Remington for repair.

Now taking this all into consideration ... doesn't anyone here see a potential problem? OR ... has everyone here been duped into thinking this is growing pains?

Now I am not a nay-sayer nor am I a conspiracy theorist .. but .. .it is obvious to the most casual of observers that something in the manufacturing process changed from the pre-release weapons and the crap that we were offered to buy. You have to remember this is a sophisticated, modern manufacturing plant that is turning these guns out. It isn't some little old man working out of his garage.

What I believe has happened is that Remington has substituted some of the parts or have allowed parts to pass quality control that are potentially questionable. Either way, it was the wrong move to make. When you have this many failures it isn't simply a glitch or growing pains ... but rather a calculated risk, probably done by some bean counting risk analysis manager of what they can get by with. You can't ignore all these failure to fires, failures to load, failures to eject and hang fires. Sooner of later there will be a catastrophic failure and someone is going to get seriously hurt with this weapon.

All in all ... I think that no matter what Remington does to fix the problem .. this little episode will taint the buying public. It is indeed sad to see

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? SEVERE GROWING PAINS??? BRAND NEW INNOVATIVE DESIGN??

First of all ... the R51 and the pedersen block can hardly be called new and innovative. This is an older technology design (as I understand it) which has been updated.

Personally, I am shocked that the gun tested so well (in pre-release) ... as seen in several youtube videos. Now the weapon is released and there seems to be issues with the weapon. In my mind, I can't help but feel that something changed between the pre-release version and the ones that were offered to the public. If that wasn't the case, why are there so many problems being seen now?

That is fact that Pedersen design is old design, about a 97 year old design, but an incredibly fine, reliable, and comfortable 'action'. I can attest to that from shooting my 95 year old Model 51 in .380 that grandpa bought new in 1919 for $15.50. I've been shooting that piece for over 50 years now. Old design, lighter weight, newer technology in materials (?), and a "Super Rush" by the marketing department to get this R-51 out to the public resulted in short-changing the owners of these 1st Generation R51s. One thing that kills me is the aluminum frame and its involvement in so much of the Pederson design's contact areas. Makes me wonder if the frames will outlast the barrel or firing pin.
I'm more than willing to wait it out while Remington makes good on these R51s. I'd just like to hear from owners who haven't had bad luck with their's.[/quote]

Don't get worked up? I'm not! I am simply pointing out certain events that cannot be refuted. Perhaps you missed what I was saying .. so let me try to make it more clear.

First of all .. this gun was touted as being the best thing since canned beer at the Shots show.

Secondly ... after the Shots show several of the R51's were out into the hands of people to test and review. If you look at the Videos, nearly all were extremely complimentary towards the R-51. You can watch almost all of them firing the gun without a single issue.

Third .. At some point after the Shots show and all the youtube videos, the actual weapons were released for purchase, Since the actual release, we have seen and read multiple stories (not only on this site but many others) of weapons going back to Remington for repair.

Now taking this all into consideration ... doesn't anyone here see a potential problem? OR ... has everyone here been duped into thinking this is growing pains?

Now I am not a nay-sayer nor am I a conspiracy theorist .. but .. .it is obvious to the most casual of observers that something in the manufacturing process changed from the pre-release weapons and the crap that we were offered to buy. You have to remember this is a sophisticated, modern manufacturing plant that is turning these guns out. It isn't some little old man working out of his garage.

What I believe has happened is that Remington has substituted some of the parts or have allowed parts to pass quality control that are potentially questionable. Either way, it was the wrong move to make. When you have this many failures it isn't simply a glitch or growing pains ... but rather a calculated risk, probably done by some bean counting risk analysis manager of what they can get by with. You can't ignore all these failure to fires, failures to load, failures to eject and hang fires. Sooner of later there will be a catastrophic failure and someone is going to get seriously hurt with this weapon.

All in all ... I think that no matter what Remington does to fix the problem .. this little episode will taint the buying public. It is indeed sad to see[/quote]

Could not agree more.

I'll second that.....

remmy wrote:If they had all the machines and tooling to make the R51 in the Remington shop I wonder why they just didn't set up shop there and build em instead of having them made from a second hand company (Para). If that story is true that is......its anyones guess. And really all this hype this year with the R51 with its intro and many fails really has led to interesting discussions has it not? Sadly the R51 is heading down the same path the 887 took a few years back.......an epic fail...not completely, but overall.

Pre-production prototypes are often made in machine shops, not on production tooling. Some are used to introduce the product, others are the models used to create the production tooling.

Why Para was chosen to produce the R51 rather than a Remington shop, is anybody's guess. Maybe as a newly aquired operation, Para had idle facilities and needed something to do. From the results, it looks like Para was handed prototypes and blueprints and told "Here, tool up and make this in time for SHOT 2014." And Para saved time and money by using existing tooling where possible. For example, the disconnector guide slots look like they were punched by multiple strikes of a circular punch rather then a specially made punch in the shape of the slot that would only require a single stroke (and produce a more precise cut out). Many of the early slides look like they were cut with dull end mills (as does the chamber).

Ultimately, Remington gets the blame for not paying attention to what Para was doing.

I have the R-51, went to range today put 50 rounds thru all ball. One fail to feed, I have to say it is a soft shooter The trigger moves from side to side. Not the greatest, but can live with. After two mags, the rear sight moved 16th of inch. I was prepared and brought a light hammer to peck it back.
Personnally it's a fun shooter , I did a plunk test with hollow points and barrel removed. I was surprised the ball were fine but hollows touched the rifleing. If I pressed on it , it would not fall from barrel. These are plus P's. Definatly something wrong? Good shooter , low recoil , sites are ok except for drift, 49 out of 50. All in all a good day. Oh NO HOLLOW POINT. Hope this helps some, I don't want to send it back untill Remington has released something? I'll check for wear tonite.

birda40 wrote:I have the R-51, went to range today put 50 rounds thru all ball. One fail to feed, I have to say it is a soft shooter The trigger moves from side to side. Not the greatest, but can live with. After two mags, the rear sight moved 16th of inch. I was prepared and brought a light hammer to peck it back.
Personnally it's a fun shooter , I did a plunk test with hollow points and barrel removed. I was surprised the ball were fine but hollows touched the rifleing. If I pressed on it , it would not fall from barrel. These are plus P's. Definatly something wrong? Good shooter , low recoil , sites are ok except for drift, 49 out of 50. All in all a good day. Oh NO HOLLOW POINT. Hope this helps some, I don't want to send it back untill Remington has released something? I'll check for wear tonite.

What range is your serial number ?

birda40- Welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing your experiences thus far.

Thanks Remmy. @Draidt, is this enought to help? 0004***R-51

Thanks for sharing birda40.

Yes, there is something wrong with the chamber. Apparently it was not finish reamed. and is cut too tight with no leade/throat. As a result, any bullets which are bore diameter at the case mouth or beyond will engrave on the rifling and not headspace correctly without extra pressure. I have found that Reminton FMJ rounds are seated deeply so that only the ogive extends past the case mouth and is thus underbore so the round fully chambers and headspaces properly. Other FMJ such as Federal or Blazer are seated longer and can create problems. Same with hollowpoints which are often conical and if not seated to the cone, will engrave.

JRH6856 wrote:Thanks for sharing birda40.

Yes, there is something wrong with the chamber. Apparently it was not finish reamed. and is cut too tight with no leade/throat. As a result, any bullets which are bore diameter at the case mouth or beyond will engrave on the rifling and not headspace correctly without extra pressure. I have found that Reminton FMJ rounds are seated deeply so that only the ogive extends past the case mouth and is thus underbore so the round fully chambers and headspaces properly. Other FMJ such as Federal or Blazer are seated longer and can create problems. Same with hollowpoints which are often conical and if not seated to the cone, will engrave.

Guess the question o the day is.... is it safe to fire with the short throat? I was useing PMC today they seemed fine.

MAYBE THINGS ARE IMPROVING ... I AM HAVING TONS OF PROBLEMS SO I SENT MINE BACK AND MY SERIAL NUMBER IS 201*R51

birda40 wrote:Guess the question o the day is.... is it safe to fire with the short throat? I was useing PMC today they seemed fine.

Can't speak for reloads, but if it is factory ammo and it chambers it is safe. And all FMJ I have tested chambers, even though it is into the rifling. Being in the rifling may cause higher pressures, but it is +P rated so it shouldn't be a problem.

You can find more on my thoughts on the safety of the R51 here: http://thearmedbear.blogspot.com/2014/04/remington-r51-is-it-safe.html.

I picked mine up this past Wednesday and between Wednesday and Sunday afternoon have put 612 rounds through it. 182 rounds with one round not chambering (hung up on the feed ramp-last round in the mag). After that, the magazines began falling out after each round fired. Reseat the magazine, pull slide, fire, magazine falls, repeat process. Got tired of it after 4 magazines. I could hold my pinkie under the mag base and keep it from falling out and it would continue to feed rounds but just wasn't confidence inspiring. Took it home, cleaned it, and then used some needle nose pliers to pull the mag retention cut outs a little to front. Took it back out the next day and worked like a champ for 150 rounds and then had a failure to eject. 5 more rounds and a failure to chamber, 5 more rounds and a double feed. Took it in and cleaned it. No metal shavings or anything crazy other than dirty as all get out. Went back out and had 4 more failure to chamber (always the last round in the magazine) out of 50 rounds. Saturday put the rest of the rounds through it and had one of the magazines fall out twice. Had a failure to eject, 3 failure to chamber (last rounds in the magazine), and one more double feed. Ran two magazines of SD rounds (Federal Hydroshock and Win PDX1) with no problems. I would say that this gun has potential to be a solid shooter. I love the lack of recoil and it is accurate as heck-just not willing to place my life in its hands just yet. The slide was really stiff at the beginning but seems to be working its way out. Still can't use one finger but I can rack it on my belt using the back sight with no issues. I can't see sending it back for repairs until there is an actual solution from Remington. Mine is in the serial # range of 64XX.
Ran the following ammo: 200 rounds of Remington UMC, 200 rounds of Federal AE, 200 rounds of Freedom Munitions remanufactured, 6 Hydroshock, and 6 Winchester PDX1.

I'm definitely not gonna call this an epic fail-just a rush to market that didn't pan out. I'm excited about the possibility this pistol has. Bought a Crossbreed IWB holster for it and it is sweeeet. Sits nice and tight on the side with no discomfort at all.

Stumpy29er, thanks for the the report. Your gun and mine are both in the 64xx range. I have had similar (but not nearly as many) mag problems with one mag but the other mag runs fine. Did you notice more failures with one mag over the other?

Also, did you notice whether one brand of ammo ran better than others. I have had only one failure with Rem-UMC 124gr FMJ. most of my failures to feed were with hollowpoints (Rem Golden Saber) hanging on the front lip of the mag, and all other failures were with either Federal AE 115g or my own reloads which were seated too long for the R51 chamber.

Stumpy29er- Thanks for the R51 report and keep em coming as to what your experiencing. Oh ya, Welcome to the forum.

JRH6856 wrote:Stumpy29er, thanks for the the report. Your gun and mine are both in the 64xx range. I have had similar (but not nearly as many) mag problems with one mag but the other mag runs fine. Did you notice more failures with one mag over the other?

Also, did you notice whether one brand of ammo ran better than others. I have had only one failure with Rem-UMC 124gr FMJ. most of my failures to feed were with hollowpoints (Rem Golden Saber) hanging on the front lip of the mag, and all other failures were with either Federal AE 115g or my own reloads which were seated too long for the R51 chamber.

I did notice that one of the magazines seems to self release more than the other.

As far as the ammo, it seems pretty universal. I had problems with all of the ammo but if I remember correctly there were fewer failure to feeds with the Remington. I didn't have any problems with the hollowpoints however I only ran two magazines of them.

I think one of the problems is that the magazines are pretty cheaply made and maybe just a tad to short (a few mils at the most). The workmanship is shoddy at best. My base plates on both mags are "bowed" out when they are loaded. Doesn't make one feel comfortable that the only thing keeping all the ammo from shooting out the bottom is a piece of bowed plastic. Need someone else to manufacture some new mags that aren't just thrown together.

maccountrypilot wrote:

lklawson wrote:Don't get too worked up. Growing pains, sometimes even severe growing pains, are common in brand new, innovative, designs.

If you have an alternative carry piece then just let Rem do their thing as long as it takes. Better for them to fix it right.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? SEVERE GROWING PAINS??? BRAND NEW INNOVATIVE DESIGN??

Dude, calm down or you'll have an aneurism.

First of all ... the R51 and the pedersen block can hardly be called new and innovative. This is an older technology design (as I understand it) which has been updated.

So is the internal combustion engine, yet there have been some very new and innovative rerolls of it. The same goes here. The Pedderson action IS innovative, in a world dripping with Browning actions, and this is the first reiteration of it in around a century so, yes, this version is new. It has significant differences from the original offerings which are also innovative, such as the use of an aluminum frame and an upgraded caliber.

Personally, I am shocked that the gun tested so well (in pre-release)

The gossip is that those were built by Remington instead of Para.

... as seen in several youtube videos. Now the weapon is released and there seems to be issues with the weapon. In my mind, I can't help but feel that something changed between the pre-release version and the ones that were offered to the public. If that wasn't the case, why are there so many problems being seen now?

Apparently something did, in fact, change: the factory.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

draidt wrote:A month ago I got chastised and accused of spreading "Gossip" for posting this.

And rightly so because that is speculation with no hard evidence.

You cannot tell me that this and the releasing of the not ready for prime time R51 is not related.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/0 ... n-resigns/

Of course you an be told that. Because that is the very definition of gossip. It's all unverified alleged "sources" and speculation which is in direct contradiction to what the informed and official actual sources are saying.

This is barely one step above the legal definition of Libel. If the "report" it ends up somehow financially harming Blackwell, then I would expect "Nick" to be sued. No, I'm not joking at all.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

maccountrypilot wrote:What I believe has happened is that Remington has substituted some of the parts or have allowed parts to pass quality control that are potentially questionable. Either way, it was the wrong move to make. When you have this many failures it isn't simply a glitch or growing pains

That IS part of the growing pains.

but rather a calculated risk, probably done by some bean counting risk analysis manager of what they can get by with

And that is speculation which doesn't fit the known facts, not even the observations by some that Para is known for weak quality control.

All in all ... I think that no matter what Remington does to fix the problem .. this little episode will taint the buying public. It is indeed sad to see

I doubt it. Most of the experienced gun owners told me that they'd be waiting for Remington to work the bugs out and that, only then, would they buy one. One person told me he'd be waiting for the "Gen. 2" version and another told me that he viewed us first buyers as "beta testers" more or less.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Beta testing an operateing system is one thing, plus it's free. Never beta tested a firearm that I paid for..... til now Had mine out again today 50 rounds o ederal 115 ball. Shoots great, but rear site drift and loose trigger. The blueing is rubbing off the lower trigger now.
Disassembled everything seems fine except the fireing pin block seems to have alot o wear. No shaveings just blue or paint rubbed off.

birda40 wrote:Beta testing an operateing system is one thing, plus it's free. Never beta tested a firearm that I paid for..... til now

Unfortunately, it seems to be the norm with almost any product now, not just software.

I knew this risk going in to my purchase so, perhaps, that is one of the reasons that I'm not particularly upset.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

My pos unsafe R51 was received by Remington on March 31st, Having several hours to spare yesterday I decided to call for a status update. After waiting a total of about 1 to 1.5 hours I finally got someone. I should have spent the time on something productive like counting contrails in the sky over head. There is no time frame according to the person I spoke to and he was would not deny or verify anything about speculation about re engineered parts. So it goes on and on and on.

draidt wrote:My pos unsafe R51 was received by Remington on March 31st, Having several hours to spare yesterday I decided to call for a status update. After waiting a total of about 1 to 1.5 hours I finally got someone. I should have spent the time on something productive like counting contrails in the sky over head. There is no time frame according to the person I spoke to and he was would not deny or verify anything about speculation about re engineered parts. So it goes on and on and on.

Thanks for the update. Still holding onto mine until Remington either announces a recall or has owners satisfied with their returned/repaired pistols.