Looks like they look took a class of jr. high kids and told them to machine some parts. I have never seen such poor work on any gun, rifle, shotgun, etc from any well known company. Some guys can make excuses for Remington all they want, but lets not forget this is what they DO for a living, make guns, that's it.

And that is the heart of the perceived problems with the gun. Remington doesn't actually make the gun, Para USA does, and is not doing a very good job of QA. It almost seems as if, since it doesn't asy Para on the side, they aren't really paying attention. This may be some internal squabble that Cerberus/Freedom Group needs to get worked out between its adopted children ASAP.

Maybe I was lucky and got one of the good ones. So far, other than a few relatively minor issues, I have no major complaints. The slide has smoothed out with use, but was not hanging or gritty to begin with so that to me is normal wear. The trigger wobbles but the wobble has not caused any problems what so ever in function. One magazine had a sticky follower. The only glaring issue for me is that it seems really picky regarding ammo. It likes Remington ammo just fine. Other brands, YMMV.

JRH6856 overall I agree with much of what you've said about the 51 and it's design, what I think really doesn't matter though. After field stripping and looking at the pivot pin interface on the trigger (at least that's what I'm going to call it), I'm sure that a bushing would help, but not completely fix the problem. The reason I say this is because it appears the trigger pivots on one pin, actuates firing with another and interfaces off of the slide stop pin all at the same time. I think a bushing would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but ultimately the trigger would need to be a bit wider within the frame to eliminate the play.

Your comment on trigger reset only being important in shooting bowling pins is the reason for my post. I humbly disagree. Trigger reset has come up as being important in every single instance of training I've received, and I believe it has real world value in accurate pistol shooting (fast or slow). If you can't feel or hear the reset, your finger is following the trigger further forward than it needs to; if it continues moving forward beyond the trigger's forward motion it will come off of the trigger shoe face, when it returns to the trigger shoe face to fire the next round it may or may not be in the same place left to right or up and down. This absolutely will effect accuracy and the time between shots. If you watch the trigger finger of an untrained vs trained individual shooting rapid fire you will see a dramatic difference in this respect. Not saying a person needs super secret ninja training to figure this out. Go to Remington's website and watch their R51 video, at the 15 second mark you can see that the shooters trigger finger is flying back and forth much more than it needs to. Keep in mind that according to Remington's video, this is the "finest trigger of any subcompact today" (1:15 mark).
Additionally, at about the 1:24 mark, "The Rocks" own engineers demonstrate that a person can use either the slingshot method or slide release lever to release the slide.

remmy wrote:also one technically shouldn't have to shoot a gun several hundred times just to get the slide to operate smoothly for starters.

Apparently, even Kimber instructs users to allow a 500 round break in period for their $1,000 guns:

http://www.kimberamerica.com/uploads/manual-download/1911Fullsize45.pdf

100 rounds in a $400 gun doesn't seem that bad in comparison.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Gixxerpilot750 wrote:Your comment on trigger reset only being important in shooting bowling pins is the reason for my post. I humbly disagree. Trigger reset has come up as being important in every single instance of training I've received, and I believe it has real world value in accurate pistol shooting (fast or slow). If you can't feel or hear the reset, your finger is following the trigger further forward than it needs to; if it continues moving forward beyond the trigger's forward motion it will come off of the trigger shoe face, when it returns to the trigger shoe face to fire the next round it may or may not be in the same place left to right or up and down. This absolutely will effect accuracy and the time between shots. If you watch the trigger finger of an untrained vs trained individual shooting rapid fire you will see a dramatic difference in this respect. Not saying a person needs super secret ninja training to figure this out. Go to Remington's website and watch their R51 video, at the 15 second mark you can see that the shooters trigger finger is flying back and forth much more than it needs to. Keep in mind that according to Remington's video, this is the "finest trigger of any subcompact today" (1:15 mark).

I question whether the average user will be able to make much use of it during Adrenal Dump. Fine motor skills go to crap. I know some folks who could overcome, but not most.

Additionally, at about the 1:24 mark, "The Rocks" own engineers demonstrate that a person can use either the slingshot method or slide release lever to release the slide.

But the manual specifies the "slingshot" release (as we're calling it in this context).

For what it's worth, I've seen exactly the same problem with the Kel Tec PF9 and P11. They have an external slide lock lever, much like the R51, and users are forever wanting to use it as a slide release when it really wasn't intended to be. The tolerances are just too tight on the spring and slide travel. When users try to use it as a release, it often fails to go fully into battery. It needs the energy of the "slingshot" or a full recoil cycle. It is my observation that apparently the R51 has the same requirement and the owner's manual specifies it for a reason.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I posted the statement below on the TTAG blog post "MAC Confirms TTAG’s Take on the Remington R51." I think MAC threw his ability to claim "impartiality" out the window at square one when he pitched his hissy fit in his blog entry about the gun not being available at the Shot Show range day. He made some really disparaging comments that I think should call into question any semblance of objectivity he might later have.

On whole, Remington deserves the bad press. That doesn't mean that guys with an axe to grind with The Freedom Group should get a free pass to supposedly provide expert reviews that, in my opinion, are really thin veneer for their personal agendas. I saw in all of the videos a consistent failure to follow the instructions, possible "stacking of the deck" to showcase the gun in a poor light/ and/or set it up (seems like the video only rolls when the guns are fouled and or need lube…), and are basically thinly veiled attempts to support the notion that the gun should have never even been imagined, much less produced. The worst part is that the gun likely would have shown problems regardless! However, just really sticks in my craw all of the “thanks for the honest/truthful/accurate/unbiased review” statements in the comments section, when I view the videos as anything but. In my mind, the only way it could have been unbiased would have been to turn the audio off…

In the end Remington opened the door wide open to all of this - it’s just unfortunate (in my mind) that the internet permits such individuals to exert such influence. Going back to what I consider TTAGs "hatchet job" YouTube video called "Remington R51 Failure to Feed." The gun has received much harsher criticism for non-issues than its deserved, while the true problems have been receiving very little, if any, air time. Regarding the TTAG issue with the improper assembly - I've *tried* to recreate the issue and can't. After more than hundred reassembles I have yet to once, despite trying on some occasions, simply not paying any special attention on most others, and still haven’t put it together incorrectly. So, for the life of me, I simply can’t figure out how in the world TBAG thinks that it is OK to reassemble something incorrectly, fail to function check the firearm, go shoot it, record audio that seems to implicate the gun, then post it online, and expect to maintain an air of impartiality.



barnbwt touched on some of my concerns related to these so called expert reviews that are supposedly “impartial” and “truthful.” Interestingly, the harshest critics of the gun also all happen to be “buds,” cross posting on each other’s channels, sites, and referring their followers to each other’s feeds, etc. I know from web searches that MAC and Tactical Existence get together in the “real world” – although online I get the district impression the image being put forth is that they’re two separate entities with no relationship who just happened to arrive at the same conclusion.

While the gun has numerous, unquestionable issues – it seems that these reviews offer little in technical content beyond “oh, gee, look it’s not working again.” There just seems to be a bit too much glee in what I’ve seen in the convincing illustration of the failures and little in the form of assessment as to the issues. I guess I expect a little more critical thinking and observation from “experts.” I’ve also noticed that in the both the Tactical Existence
(video 2) and MAC videos the guns were shown after a 100+ rounds were already (and presumably uneventfully) fired – then seemingly right around the time they started acting up the filming starts as well. In the TE first video, despite numerous statements about how “sticky” the gun was, he went ahead and shot it, filmed it and posted the predictable results – instead of simply field stripping the gun and lubricating it first. Heck, I thought everyone pulled apart a new gun and lubed it before shooting it the first time – but maybe it’s just me who does that. So, does this have any relationship to the malfunctions? Could it be that a carry pistol, designed and optimized for that and not for extended shooting sessions, might not do well without frequent cleaning when shooting more than a box or two of ammo– say every 100 rounds or so? While not ideal, I wouldn’t discount the gun necessarily for the such an issue either. Cough, PPK…

I guess my concern is that while I’m seeing some common technical problems with the guns, aside from failure to go into battery on the first round of a full mag, all of the guns I’m aware of are pretty darn reliable outside of these in the vids.

There are other potential opportunities to ding these experts in my opinion. Like it or not, the instruction manual says to release slide by pulling from rear and releasing. That method does produce much better reliability in chamber the first round and going fully into battery. Interestingly, despite this being pointed out, no one seems to be doing it in these “expose” videos. While the gun still seems unreliable on whole regarding this – I would think the that an impartial reviewer would take great pains to do everything possible to ensure that the failure they are showing is truly mechanical or design in nature and NOT operator error – to including failing to follow the instructions, shooting the gun when excessively dirty, failure to lubricate the gun prior to shooting it, improper grip (releasing the slide with the trigger finger on the slide/frame is probably NOT going to help a gun already having chambering issues…), etc.

I don’t know what else to say, the guns are obviously showing numerous and very serious problems, these issue seem to be affecting A LOT of the guns out there – including mine. Remington, in my opinion, has released a true mess to an unsuspecting public. They were aided and abetted (I don’t know if knowingly or not) by the established gun media establishment. Having said that, I still see what I consider equally obnoxious behavior coming from opposite end of the spectrum, the non-traditional gun review sector. If you have to tell me you’re impartial, an expert, or truthful about things, I’m most inclined to think none of those statements are accurate. Conversely, There are a several videos on YouTube that show real technical problems with the R51 – they’ve been put there by everyday “joes.” The information speaks for itself. They’re posted by guys with no agenda other than to identify the issues and to hopefully help to troubleshoot them.

I’ll close with an analogy. If someone is driving down the street and sees a person they don’t “like the looks of” and intentional swerves and runs that person over and kills them, then it is later discovered that the deceased was a murderer just leaving the scene of the act, yet the driver had no knowledge of this, does the driver get a pass? In my opinion Remington deserves every bit of bad press they get out of all of this. My post here is about the guys who purport to be the opposite of the established gun media, but who, in my mind, are no different. Bias is bias, whether it is bought and paid for, or simply an axe to grind.

Again, I regret that this forum doesn't have a "thankyou" button for posts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Gixxerpilot750 wrote:JRH6856 overall I agree with much of what you've said about the 51 and it's design, what I think really doesn't matter though. After field stripping and looking at the pivot pin interface on the trigger (at least that's what I'm going to call it), I'm sure that a bushing would help, but not completely fix the problem. The reason I say this is because it appears the trigger pivots on one pin, actuates firing with another and interfaces off of the slide stop pin all at the same time. I think a bushing would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but ultimately the trigger would need to be a bit wider within the frame to eliminate the play.

I concur. I don't like the side play in the trigger, but so far, it has not caused any problems when shooting and I really find it easy to ignore.

Your comment on trigger reset only being important in shooting bowling pins is the reason for my post. I humbly disagree. Trigger reset has come up as being important in every single instance of training I've received, and I believe it has real world value in accurate pistol shooting (fast or slow). If you can't feel or hear the reset, your finger is following the trigger further forward than it needs to; if it continues moving forward beyond the trigger's forward motion it will come off of the trigger shoe face, when it returns to the trigger shoe face to fire the next round it may or may not be in the same place left to right or up and down. This absolutely will effect accuracy and the time between shots. If you watch the trigger finger of an untrained vs trained individual shooting rapid fire you will see a dramatic difference in this respect. Not saying a person needs super secret ninja training to figure this out. Go to Remington's website and watch their R51 video, at the 15 second mark you can see that the shooters trigger finger is flying back and forth much more than it needs to. Keep in mind that according to Remington's video, this is the "finest trigger of any subcompact today" (1:15 mark).

I fully understand the concept of shooting from the reset. That is how I formed my opinion that it is mostly useful when shooting pins. Under the severe stress of an SD situation, adrenaline dump will cause the loss of fine motor skills for most people and tactile detection of trigger reset is a perfect example of a fine motor skill. I have no idea why this tactic has become so popular in SD training.

Additionally, at about the 1:24 mark, "The Rocks" own engineers demonstrate that a person can use either the slingshot method or slide release lever to release the slide.

But the Owners Manual is what comes with the gun, not the video. It is the Owners Manual that comes with the warning that the instructions it contains must be read and followed. not the video. And it is the Owner's Manual that says to pull the slide fully to the rear and release (page 16)

While I am on the subject of the Owner's Manual, of all the critical vids I have seen, only one ran with Remington ammo and it ran with that without a problem. All the problems I have seen occurred with other brands of ammo. That is true of the problems I have had as well. Now, here is a hint. At the bottom of page 14 of the Owners Manual is a paragraph that states:

"The Model R51 handguns were designed for use with Remington or Barnes ammunition."

The next paragraph says:

"The use of ammunition not branded Remington or Barnes may produce malfunctions."

So from what I have seen so far of the ammo related problems, the gun is performing within design expectations. It works with Remington ammo, it may not work with other brands.

Is this a problem? I think so. I don't really like it when a product is designed to market a company's other products and exclude the competition. But that is my subjectiive opinion.

lklawson wrote:

remmy wrote:also one technically shouldn't have to shoot a gun several hundred times just to get the slide to operate smoothly for starters.

Apparently, even Kimber instructs users to allow a 500 round break in period for their $1,000 guns:

http://www.kimberamerica.com/uploads/manual-download/1911Fullsize45.pdf

100 rounds in a $400 gun doesn't seem that bad in comparison.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Its called covering their ass, as far as Kimber. The real question is a break in period mentioned in the R51 manual? (That I really don't know if it is or isn't). But if your saying 100 rds for the R51, I far surpassed that and still had the slide sticking or slow to operate when cycling rounds. So I guess I was passed the break in period at that point.

remmy wrote:

lklawson wrote:

remmy wrote:also one technically shouldn't have to shoot a gun several hundred times just to get the slide to operate smoothly for starters.

Apparently, even Kimber instructs users to allow a 500 round break in period for their $1,000 guns:

http://www.kimberamerica.com/uploads/manual-download/1911Fullsize45.pdf

100 rounds in a $400 gun doesn't seem that bad in comparison.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Its called covering their ass, as far as Kimber. The real question is a break in period mentioned in the R51 manual? (That I really don't know if it is or isn't). But if your saying 100 rds for the R51, I far surpassed that and still had the slide sticking or slow to operate when cycling rounds. So I guess I was passed the break in period at that point.

I'm not the one who made 100 round break in claim. However, I am pointing out that complaining of a 100 round break in period on a $400 gun is somewhat odd when the manufacturer of a well respected $1,000+ gun instructs 500 rounds break in. You can call it "CYA" but it sounds more like "double standard" to me.

draidt wrote:I wish this site had a "Apologist" button

I can think of several other buttons that would be useful as well. "Troll" for instance.

If you want to call me an apologis,t fine. I have no connection to Remington and even less concern for the company. In my life I have owned only one Remingtion firearm, the R51 (full disclosure: I have owned Remington electric razors, a Remington typewriter, and have worked on Remington Rand computers, but these are products of different companies with similar names). I bought because I like the Pedersen action, the single action trigger and for a purely personal reason, the lack of thumb safety. At the price, I had no expectations of perfection and some concern that the design might be compromised in manufacture. The gun I got pretty much meets my expectations.

I have no personal stake in making this gun run right for anyone but myself. I certainly have no stake in making other people think the gun is something it isn't. But if I am in a discussion about it I would rather deal in facts rather then fiction. My opinions are my own and being based in my own experiences and knowledge, they are purely subjective. But if asked, I am more than willing (and able) to describe their basis. What I see from a lot of reviewers with negative opinions is just that — negativity and no explanation. And others pointing to reviewers and parroting the same negativity with no other basis is baseless as well.

A "reviewer is afraid the gun will blow up in his hand? Then why does he keep shooting it? If he truly believes what he says, is he a BLOOMING IDIOT?. If he doesn't believe it he is a bald-faced liar. And you expect me to consider him credible and trust his judgement? With no meaningful explanations? Not gonna happen.

The gun doesn't work? Tell me what happened and why. You don't know. Find out! If you can't find out or don't know how to find out, at least tell me what you think happened and why and why you think it should not have happened in as much detail as possible. If you can't do that, quit trying to pretend you know what you are talking about.

If as a "reviewer" you have a political/ideological issue with Cerberus/Freedom Group, fine. Do your hatchet job. But don't be offended if someone points out the flaws in the axe.

JRH6856 wrote:

draidt wrote:I wish this site had a "Apologist" button

I can think of several other buttons that would be useful as well. "Troll" for instance.

If you want to call me an apologis,t fine. I have no connection to Remington and even less concern for the company. In my life I have owned only one Remingtion firearm, the R51 (full disclosure: I have owned Remington electric razors, a Remington typewriter, and have worked on Remington Rand computers, but these are products of different companies with similar names). I bought because I like the Pedersen action, the single action trigger and for a purely personal reason, the lack of thumb safety. At the price, I had no expectations of perfection and some concern that the design might be compromised in manufacture. The gun I got pretty much meets my expectations.

I have no personal stake in making this gun run right for anyone but myself. I certainly have no stake in making other people think the gun is something it isn't. But if I am in a discussion about it I would rather deal in facts rather then fiction. My opinions are my own and being based in my own experiences and knowledge, they are purely subjective. But if asked, I am more than willing (and able) to describe their basis. What I see from a lot of reviewers with negative opinions is just that — negativity and no explanation. And others pointing to reviewers and parroting the same negativity with no other basis is baseless as well.

A "reviewer is afraid the gun will blow up in his hand? Then why does he keep shooting it? If he truly believes what he says, is he a BLOOMING IDIOT?. If he doesn't believe it he is a bald-faced liar. And you expect me to consider him credible and trust his judgement? With no meaningful explanations? Not gonna happen.

The gun doesn't work? Tell me what happened and why. You don't know. Find out! If you can't find out or don't know how to find out, at least tell me what you think happened and why and why you think it should not have happened in as much detail as possible. If you can't do that, quit trying to pretend you know what you are talking about.

If as a "reviewer" you have a political/ideological issue with Cerberus/Freedom Group, fine. Do your hatchet job. But don't be offended if someone points out the flaws in the axe.

Wow did you miss the intent of my tweak. In fact I agreed with most of your post. The sword was not meant for thou.

Wow - BEST POST ON THIS EVER! I wish I could have stated things as eloquently!

-Calvin

JRH6856 wrote:

draidt wrote:I wish this site had a "Apologist" button

A "reviewer is afraid the gun will blow up in his hand? Then why does he keep shooting it? If he truly believes what he says, is he a BLOOMING IDIOT?. If he doesn't believe it he is a bald-faced liar. And you expect me to consider him credible and trust his judgement? With no meaningful explanations? Not gonna happen.

The gun doesn't work? Tell me what happened and why. You don't know. Find out! If you can't find out or don't know how to find out, at least tell me what you think happened and why and why you think it should not have happened in as much detail as possible. If you can't do that, quit trying to pretend you know what you are talking about.

If as a "reviewer" you have a political/ideological issue with Cerberus/Freedom Group, fine. Do your hatchet job. But don't be offended if someone points out the flaws in the axe.

draidt wrote:Wow did you miss the intent of my tweak. In fact I agreed with most of your post. The sword was not meant for thou.

Nor mine necessarily for thee. (though I still think the button would be useful at times )

JRH6856 wrote:

draidt wrote:I wish this site had a "Apologist" button

I can think of several other buttons that would be useful as well. "Troll" for instance.

If you want to call me an apologis,t fine.

No. He's claiming that I am an "apologist" because I generally agree with you and because I have repeatedly said that bugs and glitches are to be expected in a brand new design. I've seen it happen over and over again and have named several examples of "new product issues" ranging from Ruger to Walther down to little ol' Kel Tec. The more innovative the design, the more prone to initial release bugs and issues it is. I've also taken flack from one poster for telling him that he shouldn't buy a brand new, untested, design as his only carry gun.

For decades now, I have signed my online posts (starting back in NNTP/Usenet) with "Peace favor your sword" (lifted from a work of fiction). So he's saying that posts ending with "Peace favor your sword" are those of an "apolotist."

<sigh>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Again...if I see that members here cannot have a civil conversation about known problems with a particular Remington product...warning(s) will be issued and the thread locked !!

Thank you for your compliance...gentlemen.

Thanks Shooter13. I want to talk about the R51, not personal issues.

After firing about 1200 rounds of various ammunition through my 00024XXR51, it has given me less trouble, almost flawless performance, and has indicated it likes Federal Premium ammunition as compared to Remington UMC. However, it operates perfectly with Remington Golden Sabre, HTP, Ultimate Defense, and Hornady Critical Defense. I haven't put the micrometer to its contour yet, but I "think" the failure to return to battery is the bullet being forced into the leading lands of the barrel instead of freely seating fully in the chamber. I'll remove the barrel on both of my R51s tomorrow or Wednesday and see how various ammunition seats within the chamber. My 00034XXR51 still hasn't been fired yet. Still new in the box.

I've been out of town and haven't been on here much until now. Has anyone made any headway with some of their R51 issues? Any issues successfully rectified yet?

Since headspacing on the bullet off the lands instead of the casemouth is the main problem I still have, I'm very interested in seeing the results of your measurements. When doing my own, I first measured the barrel length from muzzle to chamber face. I chambered and empty case of standard length (0.754") and measured muzzle to case base to establish a reference. As I chamered each round, I repeated the reference and took the difference.

I then measured the case length of each round and allowed for any deviation from the empty case reference.

Once I knew which rounds chambered fully and which didn't, I measured the diameter of each bullet at the case mouth. I then colored each bullet that did not chamber using a magic marker, repeated the plunk then measured the diameter where the missing marker showed contact with the rifling. Finally, I measures the distance from the case base to the first point of contact.

I also measured the OD of the cases at case mouth and base for reference. This prooved useful when comparing fired cases from my R51 and BHP.

Hey JRH,
I didn't make it to the range with varied ammunition yet. Had a family matter to tend to. 5 kids & 12 grands kinda put halts here & there. I've noted your comments/dimensions as I will use them to compare with my 'digital' plunk testing, dirty and clean. I'm still leaning toward the ceiling height of the magazine as I discussed in a prior submission. Again, after another firing of about 400 - 600 rounds (now at 1200 in 24XXR51), I should see some scoring or other indicators as well as all the other dynamic indicators. I sure wish Wilson Combat made some magazines for this thing to try. Or anyone for that matter.
I'm still concerned about the one Remington/UMC that got shaved in the chamber. I discounted it as a bad brass, but, it doesn't get out of my thoughts.

SAMMI spec for the chamber at the case mouth is 0.3810" delta. I measured the R51 chamber at this point at 0.3805" My BHP measures 0.3840"

SAMMI spec for the case at the mouth is 0.380" delta

The SAMMI spec for the throat length is 0.1718" delta. The R51 measures 0.001" +/- .0005"

My BHP throat measures 0.2005"

Well, at a round count of 3200, 24XX R51 seems to be correcting itself. 4 thorough cleanings and using a different gun-lube each time, things seem to be improving. My son still has it and has put 2000 rounds through it since I got back from my trip. Between 2200 & 2700 round count: 2 FTEs and 1 FTRB. A very light push with the thumb against the rear end of the slide makes it jump to fully-seated battery position.; Between 2701 & 3200 round count: 1 FTRB. This guy hasn't made #1 carry pistol status yet. My Sig P938 is still under my belt as we speak.
My son has the same opinion about the magazine creating intermittent interference with the block or slide as I did. I didn't tell him my views on these malfunctions before I gave it to him to take for a test-drive. I sure wish Wilson or some performance mag builder had some magazines to try, but that won't happen for a few years unless Remington revises the magazine for angular revisions. Here's hoping.
And no, I haven't done my digital plunk test or measured anything yet like I said I would. After I get all my family fires put out, I'll be right back on it.
34XX R51 still sitting new & un-fired in the box. Can't wait to see how it compares to 24XX, but 1st things 1st.

MetalBird wrote:Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts on the comparison. I am sure I will eventually get both, just not sure which one to go for first ... I need to budget for these things.
The R51 is really intriguing to me, hence the reason why I am here lurking everyday, and I want to pick up a new carry pistol. I still think the Sig is more what I am looking for in that mainly for the sizing factor you mention. I'm still waiting to see the R51 in person.
Thanks

MetalBird... Have you made any headway on your R51 vs. P938 decision?

Rick, I have yet to get the R51 in my hand. I have a few requests in to be called when one shows up in shop but have not been called yet. I am going to wait until I can find one to fondle and hopefully shoot. I will wait for the second gen R51 before I buy too ... Unless I can find a great deal on a used one.
In the meantime I will be getting a P938, that is a sweet little handgun and I need to make one mine! I have even found the one I want so that may hopefully be soon.
Thanks

I was in Academy last week and they had the R-51. I asked to hold it and was surprised by the weight. It seemed to be a little heavy for such a small pistol. I shoot the R-1 so the weight is not a problem for me, but it could be for my wife. I tried to remember all of the issues I have seen posted on this forum, so I jacked the slide a few times and didn't notice any of the gritty issues I had seen. The grip safety did have an audible click, and you could definitely feel it when you gripped the gun and depressed the safety. My hands are not small by any means, so when I jacked the slide, I tried to see how much clearance there was between my hand and the slide - maybe 1/4 inch. I don't know if it would change while actually firing. The salesman at the counter did not have anything nice to say about the R-51 at all. So, I think no R-51 for my wife. Maybe later down the road for me - I don't know.

MetalBird wrote:Rick, I have yet to get the R51 in my hand. I have a few requests in to be called when one shows up in shop but have not been called yet. I am going to wait until I can find one to fondle and hopefully shoot. I will wait for the second gen R51 before I buy too ... Unless I can find a great deal on a used one.
In the meantime I will be getting a P938, that is a sweet little handgun and I need to make one mine! I have even found the one I want so that may hopefully be soon.
Thanks

MetalBird, it might be wise to hold on the R51. At 3600 rounds in 24XXR51, it still hasn't proven reliable, especially for a self-defense piece. I finally fired my 2nd one, 34XXR51, and I almost threw it in the trash. I managed to get 850 rounds of various brands of ammunition through it. The same results, only worse, were displayed on this one. (1) FTRB 35 or 40 times, about 1/8" from battery, even after modifying the mag lips. (2) Slide sticking fully open over a dozen times. (3) 50 or more cartridges nosed down and butted the bottom of the chamber ramp and had to be bumped or physically removed and put back into magazine for 2nd chance. (4) Failure to Fire 3 different ways: (A) "in battery" and trigger did break, leaving a light contact print on the primer. That round did fire upon loading the 2nd time. That happens about 30 times; (B) "in battery", trigger did break, no print on primer 6 times. 2nd loading, it fired; (C) trigger inactive, no break and in a bind. Couldn't squeeze, like safety was on. Found smaller of two pins near the upper frame near the grip safety had started drifting out of the right side of the pistol frame. (the pin just above the top rear corner of the grips (smaller, lower pin)). This is the pivot pin for the trigger cantilever the releases the hammer. Pushed it back into the frame, fired one more magazine full, then "parked it"! I have no desire now to ever squeeze that trigger again. Maybe after taking a break from it, I'll resume, but that looks doubtful. I'm very disappointed that Remington allowed this thing to be forced out to us and down our eager throats, unproven and in such a rush. I would have waited patiently for another 6 months if reliability had been the product's results.
I then proceeded to enjoy firing my Sig Sauer P938 with accuracy, reliability, and pure confidence. Then I fired 450 rounds through my brand new Colt 45 Auto Government Model 80 in brushed stainless, fresh out of the box and not one hiccup. Then 150 rounds out of my equally "reliable", brand new Smith & Wesson 22A-1, 7" .22 Target pistol, and finally 100 round out of my 95 year old Remington Model 51 in .380 ACP, again, flawless performance.
Against the belief I'd hoped to be true, I don't think there is just one common problem with the R51 family of "Accurate & Reliable" Defense pistols. At this point in time I refuse to invest any more of my time, energy, and not so cheap ammunition in trying to resolve the insurmountable issues with these R51s. I gave 24XXR51 to my son and told him not to blow himself up with it. If you can fix it, you can have it. I'm not so sure I'll even waste my time sending it back to Remington for repair. My honest opinion... It's just another pretty wall decoration with an ugly track record. Don't depend on this thing to save your life in that showdown... it'll most likely fail to fire when you need it. It's an accurate and beautiful shooter... when it functions!

[quote= Rick 51/ R51
I'm not so sure I'll even waste my time sending it back to Remington for repair. My honest opinion... It's just another pretty wall decoration with an ugly track record. Don't depend on this thing to save your life in that showdown... it'll most likely fail to fire when you need it. It's an accurate and beautiful shooter... when it functions![/quote]

Why not send it back ? In the event they do the right thing and redesign the whole gun and replace all the ones they are holding for repair which by now is a growing number. I got my "American Rifleman " May 2014 magazine yesterday, Almost choked on my adult beverage when perusing it last night Page 47 check it out. I am frankly flummoxed as to why the once great Remington arms company has not issued a formal statement about what is being done. Does anyone seriously think that their particular gun is actually being worked on by the Gunsmith's( ? ) at Para ? I have temporally replaced my R51 with a Cheap $239.00 Zastava M88A. It goes bang every time ejects and feeds every time and pretty damn accurate.
I do have 2 other Remington products that I bought new a 1962 and 1963 Nylon 12's 22 S/L/LR bolt action rifles they are both keepers.