• Advertisement

The "Truth" about the R51...

Moderators: Scorpion8, ripjack13, John A., jstanfield103


.410
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:48 am
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:38 pm
Just received the following tweet from the American Rifleman (NRA) Keef Report.

Breaking: Remington R51 9 mm Pistol Update

By Mark Keefe (RSS)

July 25, 2014

There is a reason why American Rifleman's print edition does not review guns until they are fully in production. Often manufacturers give us the first look at any new firearm. We are invited to seminars and range events where such guns make their debut. But as a matter of policy we do not put guns into the magazine until they are fully in production.

I see no reason to tell 2.2 million readers in detail about a firearm that cannot even be ordered. The Remington R51 pistol was introduced earlier this year. It is a very interesting pistol that utilizes the original John D. Pedersen hesitation lock from the Model 51 of the last century. A group of writers including Feld Editor Wiley Clapp attended an event at Gunsite where they encountered few issues with the gun. All in all, the pre-production R51 pistols worked very well, about as well as you would expect for any new design. The problem came as the gun went from small pre-production to mass production. There are number of reports from consumers and evaluators about issues with the full production version of the gun.

Today Remington announced that R51 pistols that are out there can be sent back for a replacement from new production slated to start in a couple of months.

The R51, according to Remington, will enter production again in October. Those who have an R51 can send it back to Remington and will be supplied with a new R51, two magazines and a Pelican case for their trouble.

The full text of Remington's announcement is as follows:

"Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class.

However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington’s performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.

Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700.

The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.

We appreciate your patience and support."

.410
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 11:12 am
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:22 pm
Nope, no, nada, uh-uh, not today not ever, I don't think so. After the way you folks at Remington handled this debacle, i wouldn't trust you any farther than I could throw a 1000lbs of BS. Which is what you are still putting out. A little problem with the gun! I wound say so, a little problem with quality control. I would say so. A little problem with Customer Service, I would say so. A little problem being forth coming and telling the truth. I would say so. Remington, you lied to me before, I expect that you will lie to me again. A couple of extra Mags and a nice box don't make up for squat. Keep your R51 and the rest of you ill made crap. I will not buy another Remington product.

And tell Freedom group, Thanks for screwing up Marlin too. :x
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:54 pm
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:42 pm
yea.....Think i'm gonna have to pass on anything R51. Sorry, but not addressing your customers for MONTHS on a firearm that had multiple issues is not good business ethics. Sorry Remington fanboys but this isn't even close to acceptable. I could go on and on but I'd rather go shoot my S&W Shield.
"...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -George Mason
User avatar
.270 WIN
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:54 pm
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:53 pm
also, one would think Remington would post the announcement on their website before someone not affiliated with Remington posted a tweet about it.

That's pathetic.
"...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -George Mason

.270 WIN
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:42 pm
Location: Houston & Las Vegas
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:46 pm
Well, this tid-bit of info works for me. I have been wanting the R51 program to be a success just like everyone, and I'm going to hang with Remington to see if it really gets the real 'precision' treatment that will make them perform like their predecessor, the original Model 51. My old 51, as I've stated here before, has run flawlessly and accurately for the 60+ years I've owned it. That old Pedersen design really is a beautiful action that tames the muzzle flip, and it is remarkably accurate too. Scored my 250 with it on my CHL Range Proficiency Test, and that's with a bore that you can't even find the lands any more. It's worn out and still at the top in the performance arena.

So, for what it's worth, I'm going to turn in one or both of mine for replacement(s). The Pelican "custom case" seems to be a nice addition too.

At least, the silence of Remington has been broken and it sounds to me that they're trying to recover from the abortion that was created, and bring this thing back to life. I'm going for it.

Is anyone else going to hang onto their's for the production restart replacement?

.22LR
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:37 am
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:29 pm
I will wait for the reviews again. I still think this gun would be perfect for my wife, if it works like the original 51

Copper BB
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:43 pm
Location: Tulsa
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:56 pm
remmy wrote:also, one would think Remington would post the announcement on their website before someone not affiliated with Remington posted a tweet about it.

That's pathetic.
AMEN!

.410
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:05 am
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:48 pm
Rick51, I'm glad I decided to wait this thing out. My dedication is not to Remington but to the Pedersen design. As I've stated before, my R51 while not 100% is very accurate and a pleasure to shoot. My complaint all along has been the difficulty in racking the slide. I will indeed give them a call fairly soon and get the ball rolling on the return.

.410
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:48 am
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:09 pm
mardetcv66 wrote:Nope, no, nada, uh-uh, not today not ever, I don't think so. After the way you folks at Remington handled this debacle, i wouldn't trust you any farther than I could throw a 1000lbs of BS. Which is what you are still putting out. A little problem with the gun! I wound say so, a little problem with quality control. I would say so. A little problem with Customer Service, I would say so. A little problem being forth coming and telling the truth. I would say so. Remington, you lied to me before, I expect that you will lie to me again. A couple of extra Mags and a nice box don't make up for squat. Keep your R51 and the rest of you ill made crap. I will not buy another Remington product.

And tell Freedom group, Thanks for screwing up Marlin too. :x


Dude, don't shoot the messenger, I just quoted what the NRA said in a tweet and they quoted Remington.

For what it's worth, Remington has had my R51 since June and they have my 700 rifle.

.410
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:48 am
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:13 pm
remmy wrote:yea.....Think i'm gonna have to pass on anything R51. Sorry, but not addressing your customers for MONTHS on a firearm that had multiple issues is not good business ethics. Sorry Remington fanboys but this isn't even close to acceptable. I could go on and on but I'd rather go shoot my S&W Shield.


Agree, though I don't have a S&W Shield. :) I did buy a Beretta Nano however.

A Remington 1911 in place of the R51 would do the trick for me.

.270 WIN
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:42 pm
Location: Houston & Las Vegas
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:32 pm
lincen wrote:Rick51, I'm glad I decided to wait this thing out. My dedication is not to Remington but to the Pedersen design. As I've stated before, my R51 while not 100% is very accurate and a pleasure to shoot. My complaint all along has been the difficulty in racking the slide. I will indeed give them a call fairly soon and get the ball rolling on the return.


Yes lincen, there are many variations to the "ease-of-racking" the R51 due to the variations in tolerances throughout the production numbers and machine tune-ups. However, the actual slide feel will never be smooth but should never feel gritty. It will always be a busy transition on the rearward stroke with resistance to slide at two points. That's just a common character of the Pedersen block design. Even with that, it should rack easier than some that I've felt.

Let's keep in touch as the journey continues. I have hopes for this thing yet.

.410
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:05 am
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:50 am
Rick 51/ R51 wrote:
lincen wrote:Rick51, I'm glad I decided to wait this thing out. My dedication is not to Remington but to the Pedersen design. As I've stated before, my R51 while not 100% is very accurate and a pleasure to shoot. My complaint all along has been the difficulty in racking the slide. I will indeed give them a call fairly soon and get the ball rolling on the return.


Yes lincen, there are many variations to the "ease-of-racking" the R51 due to the variations in tolerances throughout the production numbers and machine tune-ups. However, the actual slide feel will never be smooth but should never feel gritty. It will always be a busy transition on the rearward stroke with resistance to slide at two points. That's just a common character of the Pedersen block design. Even with that, it should rack easier than some that I've felt.

Let's keep in touch as the journey continues. I have hopes for this thing yet.


I also have hope for this project. Even before this announcement I had decided to keep my R51, not out of loyalty to Remington but because the darn guns shots so well. As I've stated early on, my father is an 81 year old retired LEO and has severe arthritis. The early Remington videos show a woman racking the slide with ONE finger. My original hope was this would be the gun for my father.

The slide on my R51 is much better now than new but still takes much more that one finger. As other have noted, if you make sure to depress the grip safety and pull the trigger back it racks much easier.

Since I have 4 mags now I sure hope that, even if the mags are improved, the old magazines will work in the new version.

When I get enough post on here I will send you a PM with my email.

.22LR
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:30 am
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:56 pm
Have put 1000 rounds through my now. Early on had a few failures to feed, but not in the last 3 to 400 rounds.

Have always had the strange dimples on the primer. Even with just these few problems it must go back

for replacement. My hope is the new gun is what we should have gotten in the first place. Time will tell.

.410
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 11:12 am
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:13 pm
pinetreebbs wrote:
mardetcv66 wrote:Nope, no, nada, uh-uh, not today not ever, I don't think so. After the way you folks at Remington handled this debacle, i wouldn't trust you any farther than I could throw a 1000lbs of BS. Which is what you are still putting out. A little problem with the gun! I wound say so, a little problem with quality control. I would say so. A little problem with Customer Service, I would say so. A little problem being forth coming and telling the truth. I would say so. Remington, you lied to me before, I expect that you will lie to me again. A couple of extra Mags and a nice box don't make up for squat. Keep your R51 and the rest of you ill made crap. I will not buy another Remington product.

And tell Freedom group, Thanks for screwing up Marlin too. :x


Dude, don't shoot the messenger, I just quoted what the NRA said in a tweet and they quoted Remington.

For what it's worth, Remington has had my R51 since June and they have my 700 rifle.

Wasn't shooting the messenger. Was just showing my displeasure with Remington. Sorry if I offended you.

.410
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:48 am
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:10 pm
mardetcv66 wrote:
pinetreebbs wrote:
mardetcv66 wrote:Nope, no, nada, uh-uh, not today not ever, I don't think so. After the way you folks at Remington handled this debacle, i wouldn't trust you any farther than I could throw a 1000lbs of BS. Which is what you are still putting out. A little problem with the gun! I wound say so, a little problem with quality control. I would say so. A little problem with Customer Service, I would say so. A little problem being forth coming and telling the truth. I would say so. Remington, you lied to me before, I expect that you will lie to me again. A couple of extra Mags and a nice box don't make up for squat. Keep your R51 and the rest of you ill made crap. I will not buy another Remington product.

And tell Freedom group, Thanks for screwing up Marlin too. :x


Dude, don't shoot the messenger, I just quoted what the NRA said in a tweet and they quoted Remington.

For what it's worth, Remington has had my R51 since June and they have my 700 rifle.

Wasn't shooting the messenger. Was just showing my displeasure with Remington. Sorry if I offended you.


Understood, no problem, it is Remington that has 'offended' both of us. :)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:13 pm
Remington Engineers: R51 Launched Over Our Objections

(By Nick Leghorn on July 26, 2014)

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/0 ... bjections/

We have been chronicling the incredible failure that is the Remington R51 for quite some time now. The story took its latest turn yesterday when Remington recalled offered to replace all R51s sold to date. The story started with such promise, but as the rosy marketing hype gave way to the terrible reality of the finished product there was one question we kept asking ourselves: how did this thing ever get made? According to our sources, it looks like production may have started over the fervent objections of the people who designed the gun . . .


The word we are getting from trusted sources is that Remington went into full production of the gun before the engineers were happy with its final design. Taking an older firearm and adjusting the design to use modern manufacturing processes can be difficult, and the R51 was no different.

The reason for the objections was a major safety issue identified in the testing process, namely that the slide would bind up so badly that a chambered live round would be impossible to unload. It’s an obvious hazard to the safe operation of the gun in and of itself. But an issue that big may have also been a canary in the coal mine for the engineers to find the other flaws in the action that have plagued the gun.

Remington’s own engineers objected to launching the R51, but Remington’s top brass decided to go into full production anyway. There was a known safety issue with the firearm, but they still sold it anyway. That’s not something that will engender much trust in Remington products among America’s gun buyers.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:24 pm
Shooting Illustrated, The Remington R51, and the Erosion of Journalistic Integrity

(By Nick Leghorn on May 20, 2014)

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/0 ... integrity/

“It’s hard to classify the Remington R51 as anything other than the best new compact 9 mm handgun on the market.” That’s the official word from Richard Mann, reviewing the R51 in Shooting Illustrated magazine’s June edition. The seven-page review (eight including the cover, which features a beauty shot of Big Green’s latest effort) has nothing but glowing reports of Remington’s new handgun — there nothing but unbridled enthusiasm for the firearm. Par for the course in terms of the established print magazines, but the vast disparity between the R51 as presented in the article and the Hindenberg re-enactment that it’s been shown to be has highlighted the continuing decline of journalistic integrity that reigns in the dead tree gun mag world . . .


There’s an inherent problem with gun magazines and that problem is advertising. The things are so expensive to produce, from paying full-time writers to printing and distributing the books, the only way they can survive is by selling expensive, glossy ad space to the gun companies. While this may have started out with the best of intentions, over time it has turned the “review” into just another ad.

According to every PR person I’ve managed to liquor up, the gun mags (and the NRA in particular) are strictly a “pay for play” proposition. Manufacturers pay a certain amount of money for ads over the course of a year, and the magazines give them a proportional level of coverage. Kick in some more money and you get a review. For a few dollars more the review is featured on the cover. It’s a straight forward symbiotic arrangement, one that is well known within the industry.

The problem for gun magazines arises when they are asked to review a gun that doesn’t live up to the hype. When I interviewed for an editor’s position with American Rifleman a while back, their approach was made crystal clear: if a gun is a POS, they won’t say a single word. It goes back to the manufacturer, the review is spiked and no one breathes a word of it ever again. It’s a clear, straightforward arrangement when a magazine’s existence depends on the continued support of the firearms manufacturers since pissing one of them off with a bad review might mean shutting the publication down and everyone losing their jobs. That’s a huge incentive to keep the happy talk flowing.

So when Shooting Illustrated announced that they were putting the R51 on the cover of their latest edition, the response from their Facebook fans was predictable. Moving at internet speed, hundreds of thousands of people had already read our R51 review and MAC’s similar experience, and figured out for themselves that at the very least this was a gun with some serious QC issues. Those issues have turned out to be so catastrophic and universal that Remington is rumored to be on the verge of a recall — just as soon as they figure out how to fix the damned things. Which they apparently haven’t.

The backlash from their own readership about the blatant sale of their front page was so intense that Shooting Illustrated felt the need to post an article defending their position.

Simply put, the R51 was a major introduction for 2014 worthy of coverage by any outlet. We provided an honest review from someone who knows what he’s writing about. If other individuals experienced difficulty with their R51s, that is certainly something they should report, but again, the reason they are reporting on it at all is because the gun is interesting and worthy of coverage.

In short, they’re passing the buck. Shooting Illustrated claims to be covering the R51 because it’s popular, and the content of the review is the honest opinion of their writer. But here we run into another issue.

Even if we take SI’s word that they are only putting the R51 on the cover because of the popularity of the gun (Freedom Group did indeed purchase advertisements within the issue as well, just none for Remington specifically this time), the writer still isn’t exactly insulated from the manufacturer’s influence.

Writers in the magazine workld generally only get paid if their stories are printed. In an environment where “we don’t publish negative reviews” is clearly communicated from the very first interview, the writers know full well what’s expected of them. Negative reviews will not be published, so they only write positive reviews. And for a firearm with as much media hype as the R51, not publishing isn’t an option.

And there’s another influence bearing down on this writer. You can even see hints of it in his article. Grok this:

In December 2013, the Remington R51 made its debut at Gunsite. Several writers expressed high praise for the pistol and, thanks to my charming personality, I garnered the first independent field-test of the R51.

What the author doesn’t say is that the Gunsite event he mentions was a Remington-funded junket extended to writers they trusted to give them positive press. Big Green picked up the tab for everything including airfare and hotels. They provided the writers with samples that had been pre-selected and were certain to work. And they pampered them for days on end. It’s no wonder that the early reviews of the gun were so glowing.

In that kind of a situation, the rules of the game are crystal clear. Play ball and give us a good review, or your invitation to the next press event will get “lost in the mail.” For a writer who has to worry about deadlines often set months in advance of an issue’s publication, getting your hands on the product before it’s even released is critical to getting the story. No early gun, no story, no paycheck, no food on the table.

In almost any other line of business, I wouldn’t be so concerned about this arrangement. It’s the same game that’s played with golf clubs, cigars, boats…anything else people pick up a magazine to read about. The difference here — and the reason why this is so unacceptable — is that people’s lives are on the line. If a writer pens a puff piece about the latest Ford Focus, the worst that’s likely to happen (short of a Pinto-like fireball) is it spends a lot of time in the shop and you trade it in. Quickly. With guns it’s a different story, especially with a firearm designed for the concealed carry market.

The R51 is a firearm that people are going to trust with their lives. One they’ll depend on to protect them when their life is on the line. Despite the massively negative reviews that the gun is getting online and the hundreds of personal accounts from R51 owners having to send their guns back, there isn’t a single mention about the possible issues with the firearm in the dead tree press. How could there be? The slightest whiff of a negative comment could mean losing Freedom Group’s truckloads of ad revenue and getting black-listed down the road. So SI’s review — as it would be with Gun & Ammo, Handguns and American Rifleman — was pre-determined.

Bottom line, there’s no longer any room for journalistic integrity in the print world. Blogs like TTAG, along with YouTube channels and independent Facebook pages, are eating their lunch. “New media” are pulling readers away from the traditional rags, giving readers the content they want for free. With an ever-declining readership, the mags no longer have a monopoly on gun owners’ eyeballs. The same manufacturers can get more eyeballs on their ads online for less money than the magazines can offer, so monthlies have to fight to keep every last ad dollar. They need to cater to the manufacturers’ every whim to keep the doors open.

In that kind of environment then, it’s no wonder that Shooting Illustrated published their rose-tinted R51 review. That’s their business model. There’s no other alternative for them if they want to keep the magazine up and running — and issuing paychecks. Their response was also predictable, doing their best Baghdad Bob impression.

Consumers aren’t the target for the gun mags, it’s the manufacturers that are their true customers. Gun buyers become collateral damage as the rags suck up the last remaining advertising dollars they can as they wither and die a slow and painful death.

There is another business model, though. Magazines like Recoil are the exception to the rule, and it looks like the others are beginning to following suit. Instead of relying reviews and objective journalism, Recoil is to guns what Top Gear is to cars. Pretty pictures, some articles most people will probably gloss over, and loads of pretty gun porn. That appears to be the future of print gun media and Iain Harrison has it pretty well figured out.

The problem is that magazines like Shooting Illustrated are still trying to style themselves as journalists instead of what they really are: compilations of advertorials separated by page after page of glossy ads.
User avatar
.410
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:01 am
Location: DFW, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:17 pm
Well, mine runs just fine once it determined what ammo it likes. While it still has all of the manufacturing flaws that have been previously noted, I am in no hurry to send it back so I can sit and wait for a replacement. I'll just keep shooting it and try to wear it out before sending it in when production resumes.
NRA Life Member
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
    US Constitution, 2nd Amendment, 1791
“Rights are not supposed to be open to popularity contests."
    Rachel Maddow, 2013
User avatar
.410
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:01 am
Location: DFW, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:11 pm
He pretty much nailed the integrety part, except that gun buyers are not "collateral damage". A periodical publication's readers are, and always have been, the product—or at least, access to those readers is the product. The advertisers are the customers and what they are buying is that access. What he fails to acknowledge, is that the same is true for any website that has advertising. And that includes TTAG.

Manufacturers may not yet control the content of the blogosphere to the degree that they do the print media, but eventually they will because the same leverage applies.
NRA Life Member
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
    US Constitution, 2nd Amendment, 1791
“Rights are not supposed to be open to popularity contests."
    Rachel Maddow, 2013
User avatar
.410
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:49 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:11 am
And Remington speaks, finally:

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2014/07/25/remington-r51-pistol-update/
~John

.410
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:35 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:49 am
This is my take on Remington’s “update” on the colossal mess that is otherwise known as the R51. First and foremost, let me speak to Remington’s claim “we determined the pistols were safe. . .” – I find this statement to be an utter falsehood. The R51 was and has only been marketed as a self-defense oriented, designed for concealed carry, combat handgun. Any firearm intended for this role, which is anything less than scrupulously reliable, is for certain *dangerous* in that it cannot be trusted to function if absolutely required to do so in a life or death situation. The R51 has shown a grievous LACK of reliability related to not one, not two, but SEVERAL well documented issues. These issues include (but are not limited to): an almost ubiquitous trait of not going fully into battery when being loaded, a propensity for repetitively exhibiting failures to function (mainly related to failure to extract), magazines that regularly fall out of the gun while shooting, and (most seriously) a documented (in multiple guns) ability to fire out of battery (a dangerous condition taken alone) which leads to the massively deformed case locking up the gun.

The bracketed inserts below are my comments and opinion.

“Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. [But that acclaim was NOT based on a functional review of the gun- which was conspicuously NOT present at the 2014 Shot Show Range Day]

During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. [So called “experts” who by in large shot the guns at Remington paid for corporate junkets where said “experts” were wined and dined, and treated to days of free shooting by Remington? Experts who later reported that the Guns HAD malfunctioned at the Gunsite launch – but attempted to explain away the malfunction as caused by wind and dust at the range?]

In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class. [What obnoxious marketing crap given that they have had some people guns back on RMA for over 120 days now and have yet to state anything of significance to these individuals in this so called “update”!]

However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. [“Some R51 pistols?! SOME? Really?!! They are going to use “news speak” to paint an image that only “some” guns had issues?]

We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe [As an owner of 2 of these Guns I whole hearted disagree that these guns are “safe” at all], certain units did not meet Remington’s performance criteria. [And how, pray tell, did these “some” guns make it out the door?]

The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October. [With an “expected” restart of production? Does anyone really believe this? What exactly does “expected restart of production” mean anyhow? That on October 31st they might start making the parts again that ultimately are required to be assembled into functional pistols to return to owners? How long does it take from the “expected restart” to when fully functional guns are shipping to owners? Does anyone serious think that they will be getting their gun back before mid-December at best?]

Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700. [My opinion on what this means – “we’re recalling this turd, but don’t want to call it that – so instead we’re “replacing” any R51s that have already been purchased.”]

The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly. [We’re supposed to take this company’s word that they ever produced a quality product in the first place? Why, because the “experts” they are so cozy with reported only SOME issues with “pre-production guns?” Because of the “critical acclaim” that was based on NOT shooting the R51? What about durability by the way? Anyone going to mention the fact that the current guns have been showing a propensity to shred themselves severely in fewer than 100 rounds? That upon cleaning your gun after a burning a box of ammo at the range, metal chips fall out of it?]

We appreciate your patience and support.” [Patience? I purchased 2 R51s in mid-March - by the time I expect I will actually receive replacements in mid-December *9 MONTHS WITHOUT A FUNCTIONING GUN WILL HAVE PASSED.* And my compensation is to be a plastic case in lieu of the cardboard box originally provided with the gun?]

I’ve learned to be very careful about saying “never” about anything in life. However, I will NEVER be purchasing another Remington product again. I don’t care if they truly do get the bugs worked out of the R51 [Something I seriously doubt] and they somehow work as claimed.

I also want to get his on record now. In the end, even if these guns can be debugged enough to function on some level that could reasonably be called "reliable" I believe the guns will STILL face a durability issue that will ultimately destroy them the longer they are shot. My honest belief (based on my guns and the wear they show from just a few hundred shots) is that these guns will have a service life of 1500 hundred rounds.


Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2014/07/25/r ... z38m5XFBcJ

.22LR
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 7:19 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:02 pm
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/140 ... 13wv82a2hw
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:18 pm
TEXT of Outdoorwire link above follows:

Monday, July 28, 2014

Remington Clarifies R51 Status

Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class.

However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington's performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production.

These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.

Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700.

The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.

.22LR
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 7:19 pm
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:28 pm
July 25, 2014

Remington R51 Pistol Product Update ... FROM REMINGTON

Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class.

However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington’s performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.

Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700.

The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.

We appreciate your patience and support.

.410
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:35 pm
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:16 pm
Here is the URL:

http://ramworks.net/blog/the-tale-of-an ... tons-r-51/

Here is my response...

I'm really shocked that as badly as Remington had setup the "reviewers" who wrote articles on this gun, that any are still defending the company - yet this piece seems to be intended to do exactly that. Contrary to Remington’s statement that “some” guns were impacted, You and Gun Blast seem to have the only R51s described to run reliability. I’d love to see an unaltered production model that runs too.

The continued defense of Remington and the adherence to their carefully crafted marketing position (especially the keyword “some”) is all the proof I personally need to believe that the allegations made about dishonestly on the part of both the reviewers and publishers is true. As if it doesn’t also seem extraordinarily suspicious that the “reviewers” who, until the Remington “update” on the 25th were STILL singing the praises of the R51 four *months* (see September issue of Guns) after widespread reports of serious problems with the production guns began being reported. Some of these same reviewers seem to be the only people with R51s that work. Others were ones who were treated to a Remington funding shooting junket (er, I mean product launch) at Gunsite. You know, the shooting academy where most people PAY to go to shoot firearms and ammo THEY purchased THEMSELVES, not burn up tons of freebies provided by the same Company who’s product they would review later…

Regarding this article, a "mistake"? Really, is the best you can come up with is that Remington made a mistake?" Remington sold a dangerous firearm to an unsuspecting public. I know, I have two – four thousand apart in serial number and NEITHER work reliably or without exhibiting concerning pressure symptoms. That is a little more than an “oopsy” that you suggest actually “happens all of the time.” The gun, if not dangerous as shown by the repetitive examples of pressure conditions and out of battery discharges, is certainly dangerous due to a severe lack of reliability in a defensive firearm. Remington waited *months* (as in at least 4) before providing any response at all. When they did, instead of owning up to the matter and offering something of substance to the people whose money they’ve taken, they continue with the over-driven marketing crap and a complete refusal to call the matter what most would consider it – a recall. In Remington’s language it is a free replacement to anyone who currently owns a first generation R51 - and, oh, they'll going to throw in a plastic box (to replace the original cardboard one) and 2 mags for your 7-12 months trouble of not having a working firearm after having paid for one. I will also point out that the “update” does not state that they will replace the pistol of “anyone who has an R – 51 that does not work” – they state that “Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol” - period. There’s a subtle, but significant difference from your assertion. One indicates that the majority of guns floating around out there are just fine. The other indicates what the rest of us believe, that there is a problem will most of them (if not ALL of them) and Remington simply doesn’t want to admit it in so many words – especially on the heels of the 700 trigger fiasco. One thing is absolutely for certain based on my call with Remington customer service several weeks ago – the locking block has been redesigned and is due to be replaced on ALL R51s. How then is the problem limited to “some” guns?

In closing, I’m not sure if the author of this article was at the Gunsite “launch” or not – but based on information provided in Bryce Towsley’s blog – there were 12 guns present at Gunsite and 5000 rounds fired. That works out to be about 416 rounds through each gun. Apparently, “Gunsite is a dusty place and as the day wore on the guns got incredibly dirty. So, near the end, we did see a few jams.” (Jeff Quinn of Gun Blast reported Gunsite malfunctions as well) Personally, I don’t see 400 round being too much for a gun to handle, outside of a sandstorm, and wonder how Remington or their “experts” define “flawless” function. You know, flawless? The word Remington uses TWICE to describe the R51 in their short 171 word update? Towsley and Quinn both admit that malfunctions occurred at the launch. Where does flawless enter into the picture?
Next

Return to Remington R-51

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

  • Advertisement