When I get one in my hands to check out, I'll make my decision.

I have to say (IMHO) that even if virtually none of the present issues with the R51 existed, the gun still requires a level of intelligence and perspective few possess these days - and therefore is probably doomed to fail for this reason.

Today, you can throw up a Facebook page and a YouTube channel and instantly become an expert and an "instructor" despite no credentials, education, experience, or background. Mall-ninja level paranoia abounds, and training these days is far too "tactical" for any encounter that most will ever experience, yet almost all undertrain for what they might actually encounter in an armed confrontation. People have become spoiled in the day in age of “combat Tupperware” (Glocks/M&Ps/XDs/etc.) which, while they run like tops, would make a true firearms engineer (Browning, Pederson, Garand, etc.) puke into their mouths. There is no comparison between today’s most prolifically accepted handguns and respected firearms of only 3-4 decades ago – and truthfully, the newer (when compared to the older) are a joke. Today’s handguns are bullet-feeding mechanisms that *excel* at loading cartridges and happen to shoot them also (marginally), whereas semi-auto pistols of the nature before "combat Tupperware" were true firearms that shot very well and also happened to self-load for convenience.

Sadly, I don't think it is so much that firearms have evolved, it is that man is devolved - and these "modern" self-loaders meet the minimum standards of the new (low set) bar of “todays” man – who generally possesses none of the aptitude, perspective or maturity to effectively mesh with equipment that demands anything from them. In a day in age when most no longer change their own oil, an age where most throw away (and buy another) lawn mower every three years - I just don't think the capability exists any longer to appreciate or value solid design, construction or engineering. In today’s world most favor that which alleviates (or minimizes to the maximum extent possible) their responsibilities (cleaning, maintaining, breaking-in, etc) while maximizing performance. Today’s value system is based on the equation of, “how little can I put in to gain the maximum of what I want?”

Todays “instructors” and “combat shooters” who live their lives shooting two handed, at pie-plate sized “A zones,” while engaging targets most of the time between 3-15 yards flock to these modern handguns. These same guys would not know what to do with one when shooting one handed at 25 yards, and would probably not even be able to hit a target at 50 – despite the fact that 50 yards WAS the defacto handgunning distance for the largest segment of competitive handgun shooting, until about 20 years ago. Even if todays “experts” were capable of performing at these distances, todays equipment is incapable.

Most knowledgeable about rifle design would consider the AK family inferior in just about every way – save on overall cost and the effort required to produce one, and (as a byproduct of the loose tolerances associated with building cheaply) an intrinsic reliability in functioning. There is no comparison between an AK and a quality built rifle in terms of function or accuracy (and isn’t that the PRIMARY trait a firearm should be measured by?), but the AK does excel in one other way. You can hand an AK to a dumb, illiterate, mechanically inept peasant and it will function for a relatively long period of time with zero maintenance. It may not function well, or be able to hit the broadside of a barn beyond 150 yards, but it will function. If one has no performance expectations beyond the minimum (Did it work?) then the AK is a great weapon.

Todays “combat” handguns are essentially the AK-47 of the pistol world and most using them are the dumb, illiterate, mechanically inept peasants, who just happen to possess an over inflated opinion of themselves.

Disclaimer – I own Glocks. I also own hammers. I happen to own a nail-gun as well - there is no comparison there to the hammer. Please don’t tell me the hammer is “better” because it doesn’t require a break-in period, maintenance or is complicated. Go out and start framing a house and tell me within an hour which you’d rather use. Also, I’m not suggesting that todays “combat” style shooting is invalid or that yesteryears “bullseye” style shooting is relevant. However, I just have to chuckle at how many “instructors,” “experts,” and “grandmasters” are running around today who would be literally laughed at by the masters of previous generations, who I have no doubt would easily be able to adapt to the expectations of ours.

Specifically regarding the R51. To date I’ve seen grown men who were supposed combat “experts” and “instructors” whining about R51 slide bite while ignoring accuracy, speed on target, natural pointing ability, shot recovery and diminished recoil. These same fools decry a grip safety that simply CANNOT not be disengaged if the R51 is being held with the intent to shoot – yet somehow point to guns with plastic tabs on triggers as “safe.” I’ve seen experts would couldn’t spell or even compose a sentence that used correct tense consistently throughout, who state that the slide feels “gritty” despite the fact that there is a completely different set of mechanical things going on within the R51. I’ve seen reports that it is actually *bad* that the gun is made out of metal and somehow that extra weight is simply a deal breaker, while never considering that it is significantly THINNER due to the metal construction that all of the other guns in its class.

I just don’t think most today are equipped to appreciate the R51.

445r51 wrote:I just don’t think most today are equipped to appreciate the R51.

Wow.

I like the rant. I generally agree.

Unfortunately, this modern age of "experts" ranges to all facets of life. I'm a martial artist & martial arts instructor and I get too see lots of keyboard warriors. Every once in a while I get someone who shows up to class who loves to "yeah but" and "what if" when I'm trying to teach a technique, counter, sequence, or drill.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

With all the problems being reported, and the concerns expressed (and documented) here on the forum, it is much less likely that I will be purchasing an R51. That was not one of the poll choices.

Charlie- Keep in touch with this forum over the next couple weeks/months. A few of us have our guns in for repair for some of the issues you have likely read about. Lets see if they address and repair the issues or not. If they get the bugs worked out I'd say go buy one. If I have to keep sending it back and other guys with higher serial # guns are also reporting the same issues, I would look elsewhere. I have a fairly low serial #, under 1700R51 (I was told they started at 1000R51 for numbering and most at SHOT show were around #1200R51). I have talked to guys that have just bought one and they are already in the 6000R51 + numbering. So it will be interesting to hear from those guys if they have the same issues I have been having. My gun actually functioned well the first 300+ rds I believe(aside from a few minor mishaps probably due to breaking the gun in) then started acting up thereafter, just an FYI. Currently around 500 rds and now off to Remington.....stay tuned!

I have a R51 on order and half paid for. I also have 1911's and S&W M&P's. I will take the R51 when it comes in and count on Remington to make it good if need be. They are a reputable company and they will make it right. I both agree and disagree with 44r51, I grew up shooting one handed but rarely shot over 25 yards. However that does not cover Concealed Carry, in personal Defense it will be 10 yards max and probably a lot closer. The two handed method has been developed over the years and is a good method. The guns are not just belly guns they are accurate and dependable. My Glock 30S is almost as accurate as my 1911's and has never failed to feed and fire as it should. And for the record it is serial number 127. On CCW a major factor is dependability, I hope I never need it, but if I do I will need it to fire; so I will depend on Remington to come through. As for slide bite I have seen a lot of reviews by competent pistol shooters who have shot hundreds of rounds none have mentioned it, and they would have. Looks to me like people getting it should check their grip. I like metal guns also polymer guns both have advantages and disadvantages, I agree that the action is different and would not feel the same; a 1911 does not feel like a polymer gun and the inside rail of a CZ is smoother than either. You chose your gun with what you like, and that is fine no need to look down your nose or elevate yourself you just choose differently. Of course my problem is I like them all (except for black power, to much work). If I never carry the R51 that's fine I will carry what I like. (and 44r51 I do not think you were being snotty or elevating yourself but I have seen such comments as I am sure we all have I disagree with you on the bullseye shooting style as it applies to CCW, and downgrading of some of the advantages of the polymer guns) Now if my LGS would only get mine in.

remmy wrote:(I was told they started at 1000R51 for numbering and most at SHOT show were around #1200R51).

Mine is 110*R51.

If the numbering is true then I own among the first 109 off the line with a lower number than what was at SHOT.

While it would be cool to have a SN that low, I kinda hope I don't. Anything is possible, I suppose.

Maybe I should send a request to Rem. to find out where SN started.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

If you contact Remington again ask the guy and see what he says about the serial # start. I was told 1000 by the Rem guy but then again my hearing isn't 100% either. I haven't read, heard or seen one below 1K but its possible. It would be cool to own #1051 (or #51) wouldn't it? I'm sure someone with Rem already picked that one off the assembly line though....

I can confirm that we are at least at SN 6300


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lklawson wrote:

remmy wrote:(I was told they started at 1000R51 for numbering and most at SHOT show were around #1200R51).

Mine is 110*R51.

If the numbering is true then I own among the first 109 off the line with a lower number than what was at SHOT.

While it would be cool to have a SN that low, I kinda hope I don't. Anything is possible, I suppose.

Maybe I should send a request to Rem. to find out where SN started.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ran across a few T&E guns and they were in the #2000 range that were tested back in early Feb. so you definitely have an early production gun

Well it's time to make the decision. I called a few LGS and they have some R51's in stock. One told me they had two left of the six they got it in, the clerk also said the action was extremely rough and they were selling for $399. The second store clerk told me they have some and their price is $430. He even went as far as to say that he would not buy this gun, off the record off coarse. Time for a little personal contact.



TD

Mine is around 51xx, I have not had the3 first discomfort shooting it but have only shot about 60 thru it. My hands are pretty much medium, a friend who had some bigger but shorter fingers had no problems/complaints. I do have the strange looking primer strikes and it will dry-fire out of battery, the trigger has a lot of slide play. Out of 10 mags had one last round not strip from mag, otherwise flawless feed and extract. Recoil feels more like .380, accuracy is really great. Waiting to hear what Remington wants me to do if anything. Just called and emailed yesterday. First 9 mags were Georgia Arms ammo, last was Remington. I love the gun, have a lot of Bersa's, .380s 9mms,45s, and 1911s. Like this on a lot. Bob ps people have asked where it is actually manufactured, it is the Charlote, NC area about 90 miles from me.

Also loved 445r51 post!

Mine is ser# 0006**0R51 purchased at Gander Mountain and I'm fairly happy with it. I'll post more observations in the main Fourm.


TD

Did remington test fire every R51 that were sold

Well I voted that I plan to keep it but ultimately that will be contingent on Remington making it at least safe.

The theory behind this gun should be sound and I can't wait for rem to start sending them out again. If they get the problems fixed I'll definitely be buying one.

How about an option for: "I have one, it does not need to go back for repair, and I am keeping it."
That is the only one I could check.

negatively biased poll

JRH6856 wrote:How about an option for: "I have one, it does not need to go back for repair, and I am keeping it."
That is the only one I could check.

negatively biased poll

After 300 rounds I would have to agree with the above post. No doubt Remington/Para released some R51's that were not ready for prime time. Other than a few problems with the first 75 rounds mine has been flawless and is even getting easier to rack the slide. Don't get me wrong, this gun will not be a regular carry for me till 6-8 hundred rounds have gone through it AND Remington says SOMETHING about the uneven quality and/or potential problems with this handgun.

lincen wrote:

JRH6856 wrote:How about an option for: "I have one, it does not need to go back for repair, and I am keeping it."
That is the only one I could check.

negatively biased poll

After 300 rounds I would have to agree with the above post. No doubt Remington/Para released some R51's that were not ready for prime time. Other than a few problems with the first 75 rounds mine has been flawless and is even getting easier to rack the slide. Don't get me wrong, this gun will not be a regular carry for me till 6-8 hundred rounds have gone through it AND Remington says SOMETHING about the uneven quality and/or potential problems with this handgun.

What Ammo were you using ?

Have used Remington UMC, Federal from Wal-Mart, and Blazer Brass. All were 115 grain ball ammo.

Chuckdeuce wrote:Well I voted that I plan to keep it but ultimately that will be contingent on Remington making it at least safe.

The same here. I am waiting to see what they do with mine. I knew about some of the issues before my purchase and I'm confident it will be repaired and function well. It is a defensive pistol and function is critical. If it as reliable as my 1100 I will be quite happy.

On the outside chance it cannot be fixed, Selling something defective is not an option for me. I would rather work with Remington to either return it or get an alternative, perhaps paying the difference on one of their 1911s.

JRH6856 wrote:How about an option for: "I have one, it does not need to go back for repair, and I am keeping it."
That is the only one I could check.

negatively biased poll

Same here,
My 1st 150 rounds were a night mare, FTF, FTE, light strikes and finally no strike. I had cleaned the gun before the 1st range trip as it was full of shipping grease . After my 1st range trip I Was going to send it back to Remington as I was really disappointed.
Field stripped it when I got home and found the firing pin stuck in the breech block. Turned out to be a metal shaving lodged in the pin canal. Got it out and freed up the firing pin cleaned oiled and went back to the range. 1st 100 rounds a few fail to feed properly. next 200 rounds worked perfect.
Am I going to keep it.....I really am not sure at this point. I bought it to replace my 38 carry. The gun really is a dream to shoot, accurate, trigger is great, there is something I just can't put my finger on about it. I will continue to take it to the range and see how it goes.
for the record my serial num is above 5100. Also I did not examine the spent brass and it is now mixed in with all my other brass. all rounds fired were my own reloads and they were not checked for the Remington so the OAL might have been a tad long as they were set up for my SR9
Mike

JRH6856 wrote:How about an option for: "I have one, it does not need to go back for repair, and I am keeping it."
That is the only one I could check.

negatively biased poll

That would have been a good Option in the poll. I can't edit the poll, I'm ok with a Moderator adding it though.


TD

Have him add this one as well:

"I have one. It needs no reparis and runs great. Want to buy it?"

Sorry gentlemen...but I cannot revise the poll to add the aforementioned options without totally deleting the thread and starting from scratch.

If that's what the original poster ( ToneDeath ) wants...let me know !