Interestingly, my R51 barrel seems to have a chamber issue - in that the case mouth does not seem to be making good contact with the shoulder in the chamber it is to headspace off of. In fact, the bullet seems to be making contact with the lands (rifling) in the barrel before the case is fully into the chamber and the slightest pressure on the rear of the case makes the round "stick" as it engages (wedges into) the rifling. Firmer pressure seats the bullet deeper into the barrel/lands and makes the round impossible to remove without a rod to push the cartridge back out from the muzzle end. I colored a cartridge with a sharpie to verify this and it was for certain making contact with the rifling.

This (assuming a larger issue than just with my gun) might speak to the problem of the slide "sticking shut" with a round in the chamber, which I've seen 2-3 reports of occurring. I would guess this would have pressure implications as well.

For reference I was using Federal 115 grain ball ammo during this observation. I will try other brands tonight. I was unable (due to time constraints) to check my wife’s R51 for the same issue, but can say that it was sticking shut with Remington “Golden Saber” ammo when we first bought it and were cycling rounds through it. The Golden Saber bullets are pretty long, making the cartridge OAL near the max. In her case (without looking at it further) we switched ammo to Hornady Critical Defense and it cycled fine (no sticking) so I didn’t think further about it at the time – as we only have a single box of the Golden Saber, it is just happened to be what I’d grabbed to try cycling the gun with and not what we'd intended to carry, and it is a really long cartridge.

It would be nice to know if others are having this issue as well. It is easy to test for. Note: this involves placing a live round into the barrel once the barrel has been removed from the gun. While there shouldn't be any real danger from this - do this this at your own risk!

If you choose to try the test, disassemble the gun, then take just the barrel and point it at the floor. Next, take a loaded round and drop it into the chamber. The rim of the case mouth should hit the "edge" that extends into the chamber area. The 9mm cartridge headspaces off of the case mouth and the loaded round should easily sit against this shoulder. Tilt the barrel up to see if the round easily drops out of the barrel. (It should) Next, put the round back into the barrel and put slight pressure on the base of the cartridge with your thumb. Did you feel anything? (A tiny click possibly?) When you tip the barrel up now, does the round stay in the chamber or easily slide out? If it sticks, there might be an issue with the chamber that is allowing the bullet to engage the rifling before the entire cartridge is fully seated. The test can be repeated one final time by placing the round in the chamber and pressing hard on the base with the thumb. Given that the round is slammed into the chamber when deposited there by the force of the slide, you are checking to see if the round can be forced into the lands. Note, this test is not for the faint of heart – if the round does stick, a rod (preferably wooden dowel) will need to be inserted down the muzzle to tap on the nose of the bullet to pop it back out of the chamber.

While looking at my barrel I noticed a couple of other things. I used a Glock 17 barrel for reference and first noted that the R51 barrel (to my eye, assisted with an optivisor) looks to have about twice as much of the very bottom of the case head unsupported as the Glock. This is no small thing considering the liberties Glock is known to take in this area in favor of reliability.

Having said that, the R51 chamber is much, MUCH tighter than the Glock. A poster elsewhere suggested that this is probably intentional and required for blow-back style handgun such as the R51.

IMO Send it back it is an unsafe firearm, There is more reports of unintentional discharges over at a Ruger Pistol forum I visit.

If/when mine is returned from Remington, I will be sure and look at this issue.
FWIW the address that my gun went to in North Carolina is the Para USA repair facility. When I questioned this, I was told that Para is a "sister" company and that all R51 repairs were being done there.
Having had one VERY bad experience with Para and one VERY good experience with Para, I have some mixed / and not good feelings about the R51.
I do like the gun and do wish to keep it, if/when they get the bugs out of it.

Electraclyde wrote:If/when mine is returned from Remington, I will be sure and look at this issue.
FWIW the address that my gun went to in North Carolina is the Para USA repair facility. When I questioned this, I was told that Para is a "sister" company and that all R51 repairs were being done there.
Having had one VERY bad experience with Para and one VERY good experience with Para, I have some mixed / and not good feelings about the R51.
I do like the gun and do wish to keep it, if/when they get the bugs out of it.

I am with you I love the ergo's and the trigger ( when it works ) is great, I plan to keep it as well. Let's be honest who would want to buy a used one with the bad ( deserved ) rap it is getting so far.

As much as I wanted one, after some of the private videos & posts by real owners I have read I cancelled it & got a post recall XDs9. It is a really nice feeling gun that has a decent slide rack. That is why I wanted the R51 but with all the trouble I have heard from owners, I dropped it. Good luck to all that have them.

[quote="draidt"Let's be honest who would want to buy a used one with the bad ( deserved ) rap it is getting so far.[/quote]We don't yet know if it's "deserved" or not. We know that there have been over 6,000 produced (at a minimum) and you've seen, what? 20 internet reviews?

Maybe those reviews are representative, but maybe not.

There have been several good reviews too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I have seen a similar problem to the OP, with a different firearm. I had a 1911 barrel where the chamber was apparently not cut on the same center axis as the bore. This caused feeding and accuracy problems.

I can imagine that the same issue could lead to the "overpressure" issues of flowed primers and bulged and separated cases that other forum members are reporting with their R51's. I hope Rem can get it figured out.

FWIW, I also have an XDs 9mm and an XDs 45. The 9mm is "slightly" more accurate than the R51, but there is no comparison between the triggers of the 2 guns. The R51 wins that one hands down. The R51 also "feels" much better in my hand than the XDs. That is why I will stay with the R51 for the long haul.
By the way, the XDs 45 has the best accuracy of the 3 guns.

I've seen a few things that do concern me about this current production run. At first I thought it might have been an issue with the breech block (check out my first post) but after looking more in to this I think that there is a dimension issue on the chamber.

Last night I was looking at the pistol with a dummy round loaded in the chamber and I noticed what appeared to be the same gap between the breech block and the backend of the casing that I observed in my previous post(this was observed via the loaded chamber indicator cut out). When I took a dowel and pushed on the round I saw the gap disappear. This leads me to believe that the headspace is off due to the chamber.

If anyone has headspace gauges I'd like to see the results of a chamber test.

-Deuce

I just picked up my R51 on Tuesday and have not yet had a chance to get to the range. I've seen reports and several vids of failure to return to battery and firing out of battery.

Most FRTBs were reported on the first round from the mag. I loaded up a mag of dummy rounds I made up using MBC 9Cone and the only way the first round created a FRTB was if I rode the slide down. Releasing the slide from lock and letting it drop chambered the rounds every time. So, I decided to test further with other rounds. I had some other dummys made up for plunk testing my BHP. These would not fully chamber. In fact, the bullet was jammed on the lands with the slide clearly out of battery. I put the rear sight on the end of a piece of 2x4 and leaned on it to eject the round. It ejected the case leaving the bullet stuck in the barrel and I had to tap it out with a rod.

I then plunked an empty case, a Federal 115g FMJ, and a Remington 147g Golden Sabre and an older dummy with a differnt lead cone bullet. and took measurements.

Except for the initial dummies which I had intentionally seated deep and the empty case, all failed to fully chamber, and the bullets had clearly engraved on the lands. The number below reflect the amount of case exposed when chambered and the amount in excess of the empty case.

Empty Case: 0.120 (0.000) PASS
9Cone Dummy #1: 0.120 (0.000) PASS
9COne Dummy #2: 0.186 (0.066) FAIL
Lead Cone Dummy: 0.150 (0.030) FAIL
Federal FMJ: 0.141 (0.021) FAIL
Rem GS: 0.124 (0.004) PASS
Win ST: 0.120 (0.000) PASS

Having the bullets deeply engraved in the lands is going to raise pressures. and if the gun oi out of battery as well, it is not a good situation. Before I go to the range, I may load up some minimum loads of varying OALs.

Obviously I am going to have to seat deeper when reloading for the R51 than I have been doing for my BHP. And I think the bullet diameter and shape and OAL of factory loads may be critical. In one of the vids, from either RyeonHam or Tactical Existence, he had FOOBs and FRTBs with Cor-Bon and Speer Gold Dots but no problems with Remington FMJ. Somehow, I have the feeling that Remington's new Ultimate Defense will work as well.

I slugged the barrel (since I already had bullet stuck in it) with the following results:

Slug diameter: 0.3565
Lands: 0.3460
Grooves: 0.3560

Diameter of bullets tested:

9 Cone: 0.3565
FedFMJ: 0.3550
Rem GS: 0.3470
Win ST: 0.3510

Standard bullet diameter for 9mm is 0.355 for jacketed and ~0.3565 +/- .0005 for lead.

The Rem GS and Win ST are apparently close enough to the land diameter that they do not jam on the lands before fully chambering. The lead 9Cone and the Fed FMJ are closer to the groove diameter so they do jam on the lands.

I have seen reports online of Cor-Bon and Speer Gold Dot failing to fully chamber, and Remington FMJ chambering properly (can someone measure the diameter of this round at the casemouth?). I suspect the Rem FMJ may be underbore like the Rem GS and Win ST. I have seen no reports of bulging case or bulging primers confirmed to be associated with fully chambered rounds.

Can you check the chamber depth to shoulder?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

~0.6350" +/- 0.0005"

SAAMI 9mm and 9mm+P specs...

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/9mm%20Luger%20-%209mm%20Luger%20+P.pdf

I'm new to the terminology but are you saying the chamber depth to shoulder is not long enough? (Again I can read a schematic, but I am unsure of what part you guys are referring too.)

Wizardsblade wrote:I'm new to the terminology but are you saying the chamber depth to shoulder is not long enough? (Again I can read a schematic, but I am unsure of what part you guys are referring too.)

It isn't too short. Well, maybe .001. Standard Case length of a 9mm is .0754". The rim and rebate (extractor groove) is 0.117" That leaves 0.637" for the body of the case. I measured the chamber depth at 0.635 +/- 0.0005" If it is short, is by 0.0015" and my measurement could easily be off that much.

Since this is a delayed blowback system, the case is moving out of the chamber while still under pressure, but because of the delay, it doesn't move far enough to expose the brass walls before the pressure drops, if the round is fully chambered and the slide is in battery when fired.

The chamber design leaves the case head unsupported, but it is solid brass so it really doesn't matter. There is a small area of the body unsupported at the feed ramp. Very similar to a .40S&W Glock. This probably isn't a problem unless the gun fires out of battery which it can do of the round isn't fully chambered, Then the case might be bulged at that point.

Hope this helps.

Ah. OK thanks.